Models: Attract Women Through Honesty

Even though it is directed towards men, I highly recommended Models: Attract Women Through Honesty by Mark Manson. It gives a lot of examples of common dynamics and gives helps gets you in a good headspace to approach the question prompt.

On the surface it's critical, but it isn't very biting just because it mainly goes after the low hanging fruit of toxic masculinity and male violence while downplaying the structural advantages men enjoy in society. It mostly lets him pretend to objectively criticize both sides and then he can decry feminists for going too far in the other article, (which the OP wanted to talk about in the main for mentioning Sam.) It lets him say the wage gap is a myth even though women still have much less political and economic power or prestige, which is feminists' real argument.

It lets him say, "You want more women in politics? Run for office." An absence of candidates doesn't really explain why politicians for the GOP that win are still almost entirely men, or the laws are so weak they can still get away with rewriting them and restricting feminists and abortion after all these years. Structurally there is also a good old boys club at elite colleges that leads to the supreme court being overwhelmingly male, 8:1. Telling women to run for office when much of the country is still sexist and the local GOP won't nominate or elect them is like telling poor people they need to pull themselves up by their boot straps.

Add to that his praise of Sam Harris's demeaning and dismissive stereotypical strawmen of feminists being too petty:

>"Is this really the cause of your generation? Safe spaces and trigger warnings and microaggressions? That’s the trench you’re willing to die in?

I also quickly dismissed him because he was obviously part of the PUA community (which gives him a traditional masculine and reactionary bias): https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358

He wrote that book, and I think self-help books are usually scams.

Hey man I totally understand this feeling. I highly, highly recommend you read Models by Mark Manson. It's a dating book, but it's really a book about knowing and practicing self worth, which is crucial to dating and developing meaningful connections with anyone. It's like the father-son conversation I wish my dad gave me and I so wish I read it at the beginning of college. After I read it, I started to have a better relationship with myself, overcame my fear of rejection, understood the values I wanted in a partner and how to create health boundaries.

DM me I can send you a free e-book of it.

https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358

So you're not dating or having sex now, you've been working on yourself but you realise you need more work, and you'd prefer to not enter a long-term relationship right now because you're not ready? That's a full plate! I wonder if you might like Models, by Mark Manson. A pick-up book written for young men from a self-improvement perspective - no chads or negging or any of that crap.

Since we're on a sex-positive reddit, I also want to add: his book is not always as sex-positive as I'd like. But I think it should hit all your issues really well, so I do want to make the recommendation. Good luck!

Do not force and rush relationships if you did already. You can ask your exes for their perspective if you were somewhere wrong and what they would change to your character and behavior towards them. I also do recommend taking a look at this book which mentions a lot of things about a man’s behavior towards women and life in general.

TLDR: Models. It's a book that will improve way more than just your dating skills - if you are honest with yourself and try to follow its advice with a tad bit of self-reflection, that is. You have to find your inner-fulfillment before you can really find happiness with others.

The things you said are all external. You will get a lot further by working on your confidence. It really doesn't matter how you look if you come across as someone who is inauthentic or needy. Those are the things that really matter - you have to be content with yourself before you can really impress other people. Or people who are worth spending time with anyway.

> When you have multiple bad experiences it is very easy to sabotage the whole thing. Whenever I talk to someone, in my mind I know it won't work out just like the previous ones and then that gives me a feeling of disinterest and frustration.

The more you pursue things, the harder they are to reach. There is a nice quote in Manson's book "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck":

> The desire for more positive experience is itself a negative experience. And, paradoxically, the acceptance of one’s negative experience is itself a positive experience.

It sounds like you are putting way too much pressure on the date and how it turns out. If you are happy with and by yourself - truly happy, not fake-happy - and see a date as a way to get to know someone regardless of how it turns out you will definitely have more success. But the self-defeating attitude ("I don't even look because I know there is nothing there and even if I approached it won't work just like the previous experiences.") won't get you anywhere.

I really don't know you so this is just blanket advice, but I recommend you forget dating for a while and work on your inner-self. Find things that give you emotional fulfillment and pursue them. For me, for example, it's guitar, hacking, and cooking. Once you have things that you care about and don't desperately look for dates to fill that part of your life, you can start dating. And then just be yourself and people/girls who like you the way you are will flock to you - you don't really want the others around.

It's really interesting: I love talking about music theory, how networks work, or what the last thing I cooked was and why I did it the way I did it. And my dates always tell me that they are fascinated by my passion and love the way I talk about it, even though they couldn't give two flying fucks about the way scales are built. Of course, girls still flake on me. I see less than half of my Tinder dates a second time. You can't win everyone. But that shouldn't destroy your confidence or your hope. Those things are a choice and something you can only give yourself - don't let anything take them from you.

Leete: Models: Attract Women Through Honesty

There's no law against daydreaming about love and sex. But you also need to know how to differentiate between fantasy and reality. We all fantasize about sex, or being President of the world, flying, being a superhero, etc. There's nothing wrong with it, just as long as you understand your limitations and what's realistic.

After being alone my entire life, I think when you get to my age a man is pretty set in his ways. I've never shared a bed with anyone, not even once, so I have no idea what it would be like to sleep with another person beside me all night. I'm a light sleeper as it as, and the idea having to share a bed with someone at this stage in my life seems troublesome; I don't think I would ever to be well rested if I had someone in my bed. Even with sex, there as a book called "Models: Attracting Women Through Honesty" by Mark Manson", and the author brought up an interesting point about how if you go too long in life just masturbating, you're going to have a difficult time actually being inside a woman, due to the nature of the sensitivity your penis is used to from jacking off compared to a vagina. Without going into much more detail, it essentially says if you've been only jerking most of your life, both you and your female partner aren't going to enjoy sex very much.

This! So much this! I lost mine at a one night stand... No regrets! It's not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

After you're done with the deed. It's time to improve yourself. I suggest the following book.

https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358

Also check out this book regarding women and dating: https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358

>I am in love with you and have been since I first set eyes on you

Jesus Christ, dude. Learn the difference between love and infatuation.

Also read this book

> Has anyone been in this situation or one similar?

There's a subreddit for this called /r/datingoverthirty ... ohh wait!

It's shocking if I can't find an old post or current post with someone experiencing exactly my situation as if they were there. People ask/answer the same questions.

As a guy, this book might be a useful read. https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358

I've recommended this book tons of times before but I highly recommend Models: Attract Women Through Honesty by Mark Manson. He's the same author of the NYT Bestseller the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. Audiobook version is great too!

As an addendum to the other comment, definitely monitor your internet usage. After I was rejected, I was reading trp, askfeminism, purplepilldebate like hours a night. Then I'd go to be frustrated and depressed vowing to quite ruminating on it and I'd be back the next night.

I recommended this book in another comment and I think it is a great model for dating and understanding what woman find attractive and why without a misogynistic perspective.

> Models

I would guess Models: Attract Women Through Honesty.

Does "advice for contrarians" mean that this is contrarian advice, or that it's mainstream advice, couched in language contrarians will appreciate?

I'm asking because the SSC quote ("not necessarily the same kind of social skills people who want to teach you social skills will teach") suggests that this advice has been suppressed or silenced, but it seems pretty normal to me --- in particular it seems close to Mark Manson's concrete recommendations in "Models".

It's a book by Mark Manson

Models by Mark Manson

https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358

It's technically a "dating" book, but I think it's an excellent read for all social relationships.

https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358

I really hate condescending advice. Those friends of yours who are saying that basic human interaction and relationships are underrated are clearly not understanding your struggle. Ofc they take it for granted. They've had it constantly. It's nothing that they're missing. You've made a good point by saying you've been devoid of it for 21 years, while everyone around you was getting a piece of the cake. It can drive anyone crazy. Especially at this age, where you're supposed to be master of these things. There isn't much advice that could really help an individual on this. And most of it out there sucks. Things like "just go out there and meet new people" or "Start with baby steps and just say hi to someone". I don't buy it. This is hardly possible when no one's around you. So my advice is :

​

A. Get someone to supervise you on your reset journey. You'll need a coach. Not as in a "a pickup artist coach". No. You'll need someone that's had that experience you're missing and that you trust. Needs to be a good friend. A safe person. And let them know every single detail of your interactions. Especially about girls. He should give you constant moves that you should make and tell you what you're doing wrong. Youtube videos are always welcome too. I recommend this book, for knowing about your childhood paradigms and what behaviour you should avoid. And this book, for some insights on female behaviour. They are casual lecture. Easily downloaded by searching the name of the book + pdf on google.

​

B. If (A) fails, then you're pretty much on your own. That means you should self coach on self improvement by constanly setting different tasks. For exemple : "today i want to say hi to someone and start a conversation with that person. And tomorrow i want to find out about someone's crush", and getting harder by the day. There are also some good exercises in the second book i've linked. I'm working on this myself, and it can be hard getting out of the comfort zone alone. That's why a coach would be best recommended. Not only that, this method needs consistency. It could take years for a final result.

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That being said, i hope i didn't miss anything. Remember we're all having the same struggle. Pain and stress could be great motivators. Hope you'll do well :)

I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned yet, but therapy is also an answer here. If you’re really opposed to therapy for some reason I recommend reading No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover and Models by Mark Manson. Both of these books will help you to think more about what you want and stop putting so much weight on what women think of you. But honestly I really recommend therapy too.

https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358

It seems to be the goto for honest but not redpill-misogynic dating advice. It's good but it harps on about "finding ones mission in life" and is generally too American for my taste. My mission in life is to live in a small house with a nice wife and spend the days in blissful monogamy. How's that for a catch-22?

I also recommend Aziz's book (and I'm also engaged because my partner took advice from the book and suggested an exact day and specific time when asking me out for the first time).

I think the focus on values and finding a partner who can meet your needs (the right and the top priority needs) is so important (a point made by Attached). I think one problem is that too many people are attracted to partners that validate them in superficial ways, but leaving significant core needs unmet. Mark Manson has a book, Models: Attract Women Though Honesty, that I don't love, but it's the best I've found yet for younger men with difficulties dating. He talks about "polarizing" women, whereby one sorts women into those who are interested and those who aren't and I find myself recommending such an approach using one's values. So I suggest that men and women alike lead with the the things that the things (maybe even put them front in center on their dating profiles) that are most important to them, the things they fear will push partners away, and who they're looking for by the lights of notions of their long-term fulfillment.

I highly suggest Sex God Method - it will probably break him though. You can also look at:

Married Man's Sex Life (ironically, not all about sex.)

​

Attract Women through Honesty - has a good chapter about sex.

Go out into the street and look at the people who are couples. Not just the ones that are making out, all of them. How many of them are composed of supermodels? I would wager the answer is "almost none". What do we learn from this? That in practice people who are not hugely attractive form and maintain relationships. It happens all of the time, all around us.

Also, remember that women are more similar to men than they are different. You can learn a lot about the situation and about yourself by simply putting yourself into their shoes without assuming they must have some magically different personality that you don't understand. There are some socialisation differences and some hormonal differences, but they matter far less than people like to think.

Lastly, veto the use of language like "alpha males", for yourself and amongst your friends. There's a lot of shit advice out there. Advice that focusses on tricking women into relationships that satisfy no-one and shatter like plate glass at the first sign of stress. You don't want those relationships. Instead, get good advice from sources like this, this and this. Learn to tell the difference between the TRP "no-one will ever love me for who I really am" logic and the more correct and useful "yes women like masculinity, but there are many ways to be masculine" logic.

https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339

https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358/ref=pd_lpo_14_t_2/142-8109446-6308331?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1463750358&pd_rd_r=580ac75d-2a80-407c-a0eb-e31681b858eb&pd_rd_w=GMSV0&pd_rd_wg=Rdls7&pf_rd_p=7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b&pf_rd_r=4FCYG79SN8H56H8NVBVG&psc=1&refRID=4FCYG79SN8H56H8NVBVG

I wouldn't involve your mother in stuff related with masturbation. Just don't do it man. It's the worst mix.

I was raised in christian family too, they are still very, very religious, but I'm not religious at all, I have world view of a deist.

Here comes the harsh truth. Christianity was a base of our civilization and it organized our society, it was the glue that worked for centuries.

There's this important piece of a puzzle called Neoteny.

Young deer is ready to be self sufficient when it's 3-4 years old, it's mature.

Meanwhile for humans, this periods lasts for a far longer time.

Even a century ago, there were some 14-16 boys that were able to support their family (sic!).

But technology swapped things around. Now people are self sufficient when they are 20+, often when they are 24-26. The complication of modern world forced this situation.

There's nothing better for a religious person to marry when they are young. But here comes the problem - it's very rare in modern world and hard to execute. Modern women are armed with BC pills and they want to have a cake and eat it too. They want to marry when they've established their "careers" and they have a tools (bc and abortions) to execute this plan.

In modern world, people are ready for sex @ 13, and they are expected to wait with it for 10+ years?

Best advice I can give you, is to look intensely for a wise, religious girl, that shares your values and wants to marry you when she's young, so you can enjoy a healthy, happy sexual life in marriage ASAP. Every truly religious girl that I know did this. (They are rare, so I know 3 cases.)

Get involved socially in religious circles and look which girls are there for the party and friends (common) and which girl is a real believer (rare).

You need to get good at really opening up girls to you, so you know them for real. You don't want to marry an illusion. Tool for opening people up is to be non-judgmental. As soon as you start throwing judgments, people will close up and you will only see fake facades.

Get to know a lot of girls and keep your eyes wide open. See what values their best friends have. Watch out for hidden/denied aspirations. When times are good, people are mostly what they declare they are, but when push comes to shove, hidden aspirations/needs come to the surface and you can get really disappointed.

Spend some quality time with girls you think are nice. Engage in sports together, go for a hiking trip and see if they have a character or they are just lazy princesses.

TLDR: You want to marry young to a girl that shares your values. It's hard in modern world, but that's the only way for a healthy sexual life of a religious person.

Book recommendations:

• "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover - it contains important steps to become self-sufficient and how to turn your life around. Like the advice of respecting your parents, having great relationship with them, helping them, but not being dependent on them in your decisions.
• "The Way of Superior Man" by David Deida - Great for understanding male-female dynamics and contains great advice like "staying on edge", pushing yourself everyday a tiny bit out of comfort, to stay strong as a male. No women will respect you, if she doesn't feel you are constantly pushing yourself.
• "Models: Attract Women Through Honesty" by Mark Manson - Most pickup stuff is gamey, tricks upon tricks, manipulative cringe after cringe. "Models" is about expressing yourself and being honest, which I think is the best style of being with women.

Wish you the best man, stay strong!

On Designing a Good First Date

Put together the things I've talked about above. You asked her out, you need to have the plan for the date. You need to make the woman feel safe, and if there's no chemistry you don't want to be stuck in an all-day bookbinding workshop feeling awkward (might be a fun date later, though!). Here's what I think a good first date should do:

• It should be somewhere public, so the woman you're with can feel safe with you.
• It should have an early exit, so if either of you aren't feeling it, you have a way of finishing early without anyone losing face.
• It should have ways of increasing the intimacy and isolation if you are feeling comfortable with each other.
• It should transition to an activity. Anyone can buy a girl a meal. You need to see if you can make good times together.

Putting those principles together, here's an example daytime date. Tell her to wear sneakers and practical clothing. Meet at a cafe for brunch or coffee, move to a wander around a park or botanic gardens if it's going well. Pack a frisbee. If it's going well and she's sending strong signals, you can maybe steal a kiss in a quiet corner. Chuck the frisbee around if she's into that sort of thing.

Or, for a nighttime date: meet at a bar you like, have a drink or two. Plan to head to (another bar/dancing/activity) if it goes well, and detour via your home to ("pick up your phone charger"/other bullshit excuse) along the way. This lets you show her that you don't live like a total troglodyte without saying "I'm not a serial killer, please inspect my apartment", and without doing it at the end of the night so she doesn't have to sort out the "oh god is this the bit where he tries to have sex with me? I'm not yet sure how I feel about that..." feelings. If the rest of the night goes well and you're having a great time, then it ends up where it ends up.

Offer to pay the bill, at least on the first date. You asked her out, you can pay for it. If she offers to split, push back lightly but accept. How hard to push back here is going to depend on how strongly feminist your dating cohort is. Some women like to pay their way, some don't. I have noticed that women who are strongly insistent on paying their half tend not to want a second date with me, and I think splitting the bill is their way of "balancing the accounts" and not feeling like they're taking advantage of the guy.

On The Manosphere

If you're looking online, you will probably run into manosphere sites and their... interesting ...perspective on gender dynamics. These need to be interpreted carefully, and you need to understand the lifecycle of online communities to do that. In a community about seduction skills, you're going to have a constant stream of newbies (mostly frustrated men). The main userbase will be frustrated newbies and recovering newbies, a chunk of people who are finding their feet, a chunk of people who are doing well and still happy to talk about it, and some burning-out veterans who are increasingly frustrated with newbies asking the same damn questions. The result is a slow decline: the average poster, if he improves his seduction skills and becomes a good dating prospect, will probably drop out of the community at some point. The veterans burn out, and you're left with clueless newbies, people with axes to grind and products to sell, damaged men forever tinkering with their "game" and a relative lack of well-adjusted advice. This means that the older the post, the more likely it is to be good.

Manosphere sites will claim to have unique insight into the dance between men and women. They will tell you that "women are like water, they take the shape of their container" (society, gender roles). They will tell you that women are possessed by a "rationalization hamster" that does the necessary gymnastics to construct an excuse for anything. Everyone responds to incentives. Everyone repaints their story in a flattering light. Unfortunately, manosphere sites are also one of the few places that will counter the dominant media narratives about how relationships form. I have a lot of sympathy for frustrated "nice guys", when their courting is exactly what they were taught, and they're getting no success at all. Unfortunately there aren't many places where men can learn how to not be single that both work and aren't full of unfortunate sexism. Best advice I can give: sip slowly from that particular river, and don't get poisoned by it.

When Things Go Wrong

You've wondered elsewhere about what happens if you're rejected. Here's one of my stories. I'd struck up a conversation with a girl at a bus station, and she was initially pretty into me - she picked up and carried the conversation when I stumbled, and at one point said "is this the bit where I give you my number?". We set up the actual date pretty easily, but there wasn't much chemistry and it was a hard place to sit and socially touch as we talked, which didn't help. We did leave the bar holding hands and walking close together (it was cold), but when I went for the kiss she recoiled back and I'd clearly misread things. We walked back to the bus station a bit further apart, and when I texted her later to set up another date (hey, maybe it was "not yet" and not "no thanks"), she gave me a pretty clear no. So I deleted her number and got on with my life. The end.

Resources

• Mate: Become the Man Women Want (Summary). I've read this and strongly recommend it. It's okay to want romantic fulfillment. It's okay to put your best self into the mating markets. It's okay to go where the women are.
• The Book of Pook. Dating is not a zero-sum game. I last read this through about five years ago. It's old, and I'm not sure how well it's aged, but I liked the bits I flicked through.
• Models: Attract Women Through Honesty. I haven't read this but have seen it recommended in a lot of places.
• I have seen the RSD (Real Social Dynamics) stuff recommended, in particular The Blueprint and Pimp. I've read neither, and I do recall some of the RSD guys being controversial so you'll have to decide whether they deserve your money, you acquire the material through... other ...means, or give it a pass. At the end of the day, you can learn how to be attractive to women to become an asshole that uses them and discards them, or you can learn how to be attractive to women to have a great relationship with a girl that makes you happy. Which you choose it up to you.
• [DiCarlo Escalation Ladder}(https://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/hlmra/dicarlo_escalation_ladder_concise_and_emphasized/). A concise framework on social touching.

Instead pay for these:

Put your pp in a vagina or you vagina on a pp the real way.

Men:

https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339

https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358

https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Encyclopedia-Modern-Bodybuilding-Updated/dp/0684857219/ref=nodl_

Women:

https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Seduction-Women-Brenda-Venus/dp/0452277949

https://www.bookdepository.com/Slim-For-Life-Jillian-Michaels/9780385349246?redirected=true&utm_medium=Google&utm_campaign=Base2&utm_source=IE&utm_content=Slim-For-Life&selectCurrency=EUR&w=AFFPAU9SC1J8DHA8VCCL&pdg=pla-293946777986:cmp-9463711619:adg-98687126840:crv-420380901788:pos-:dev-m&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7sXL2Kuk6AIVzbTtCh1SngAdEAQYASABEgKzFfD_BwE

> Is an inability to meet a significant other or, rather, a total lack of a dating life something that is "out of our control"?

The result of looking for someone, having or not having a significant other, is out of your direct control, yes.

> And should I therefore accept it

Yes. We cause ourselves a lot of pain by demanding that reality be one way or another. We can't force reality to be the way we want it to be. We have to accept reality for what it currently is.

I know this is easier said than done.

> and stop worrying about putting myself out there?

Do you mean stop trying to meet someone? No, you don't need to stop trying. If it's right for you to look for someone, you should keep doing it.

> I have been on my journey to healing on my own since then. > > I've taken into my control everything I possibly could. I meditate though it is hard. I exercise. I read. I eat well and cook for myself. I'm hygienic. I have a degree. Though I don't have much of a career, I am responsible enough to have a job I go to 40 hours a day 5 days a week and support myself.

That's really great, you should be proud of yourself! You don't need validation from other people to look at the hard work you've done and feel good about it.

> Nothing I've read from Epictetus to Marcus Aurelius say much about being alone or lacking love in one's life....

It's too bad that there don't seem to be any surviving Stoic writings on this topic. I know Seneca has some writings on friendship, which relates somewhat. Epictetus has a discourse on loneliness. But nothing I know of that addresses your exact problem.

Here are some articles that you might find helpful, though:

• Stoicism, Erotic Love, and Relationships by Greg Sadler
• Stoicism, Dating & Self-Acceptance by Linda Bebbington
• Emotional Intelligence and Stoicism by Linda Bebbington

Finally, you're trying to meet someone. How? While this book is not specifically Stoic advice, it is an approach to dating that emphasizes courage and honesty:

Models: Attract Women Through Honesty by Mark Manson